Fostering Futures℠
The California Association of Health and Education Linked Professions is excited to introduce you to Fostering Futures℠ a podcast that brings you high-quality, research-based content designed to inspire and educate. Each episode is crafted with care, drawing on the knowledge of credible experts, parents, and community members to ensure both trustworthiness and depth.
Our mission is to engage and expand our audience by delivering thought-provoking material that focuses on key areas crucial to the development and well-being of all youth. Through our discussions, we aim to provide insights that are not only relevant but also transformative.
Join us as we explore innovative approaches in special education, Social Emotional Well-Being, and Community. Be ready to be apart of a community committed to making a positive impact.
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Fostering Futures℠
Episode 8 - Beyond the Numbers: How PBIS & MTSS Help Schools Thrive
In this candid, practical episode, host Athena Cordero sits down with Dr. Kent McIntosh (University of Oregon; Co-Director, National Center on PBIS) and Angie Mgbeke (Project Manager, Prevention & Intervention at CAHELP) to talk about what it really takes to help schools thrive right now. They cut through post-COVID noise, staff turnover, community tensions, initiative overload and focus on a simple formula: relationships first, data always, teams over heroes. Kent shares how to look at discipline and equity data before making assumptions, while Angie explains how coaching-plus-follow-up (not one-and-done PD) turns plans into practice. Together, they model tactful, honest leadership: celebrate wins publicly, deliver corrective feedback clearly, repair harm restoratively, and keep adults, and students focused on what we can do next.
🔑 Highlights & Takeaways
- Back to basics after disruption: Reduce the noise; return to practices that build safety, belonging, and consistency for students and staff.
- Data before conclusions: Check for disproportionality and fairness locally instead of assuming national patterns; let the numbers guide the conversation (not accusations).
- Relationships > programs: Frequent, genuine recognition and visible leadership set the tone; trust makes tough feedback doable.
- From “initiative fatigue” to integration: Use MTSS/PBIS as the umbrella—attendance, SEL, mental health, and prevention work fit into tiers (All / Some / Few).
- Make PD stick: Pair training with coaching, action plans, and walkthroughs; share data ahead of time so teams can process before meeting.
- Practical facilitation moves:
- Look for the “arms-crossed” temperature check and aim to reduce resistance by the end.
- Use after-action reviews (“What worked? What didn’t? What next?”).
- Favor steady positive interactions over the old “compliment sandwich.”
- Invite thoughtful skeptics into planning—they often foresee real barriers.
- Restorative leadership: Own missteps without burdening others to forgive on the spot; repair relationships and outline concrete next steps.
- Family partnership is essential: Schools function as resource hubs; align supports for working families and changing home dynamics.
- What kids remember: Adults who believed in them and told the truth—firmly, kindly, and consistently.
This episode is a must-listen for principals, district leaders, coaches, and teacher teams who want an actionable playbook for leading with empathy, using data well, and integrating supports so every student and educator can succeed.
Thanks for listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram | www.cahelp.org | podcast@cahelp.org
00:00:09 Intro
The relentless pursuit of whatever works in the life of a child.
00:00:18 Intro 2
Welcome to Fostering Futures with CAHELP, a podcast dedicated to our relentless pursuit of whatever works in the life of a child.
00:00:26 Intro 2
I'm your host, Athena Cordero, inviting you to join me and countless others as we share our unique perspectives and expertise in the world of special education, behavioral health, social-emotional well-being, and community.
00:00:39 Intro 2
Follow us on Buzzsprout, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
00:00:45 Athena Cordero
Okay, everyone, so today I actually have a treat for myself.
00:00:50 Athena Cordero
I have two of my favorite people with me.
00:00:53 Athena Cordero
I have Angie Mgbeke
00:00:54 Athena Cordero
She works here at CAHELP with us.
00:00:56 Athena Cordero
She is a project manager for the Prevention and Intervention Department.
00:01:01 Athena Cordero
And I also have Dr.
00:01:02 Athena Cordero
Kent McIntosh, who wears, I don't know, more hats than anybody I've ever met in my entire life, maybe.
00:01:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, maybe.
00:01:10 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I got a couple hats.
00:01:12 Athena Cordero
You do.
00:01:12 Athena Cordero
So can you both, and I'll start with you, can you just give us, you know, maybe an overview of how awesome you are so folks know who they're hearing?
00:01:23 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I will get an overview of who I am.
00:01:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then the awesome part is something the audience can think about.
00:01:30 Athena Cordero
Okay, yeah, we'll do that.
00:01:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So I'm a professor and researcher at the University of Oregon.
00:01:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I am, my academic home is in special education, although we have a slightly broader view of special education that also involves prevention and what we do for everybody that also helps support students with disabilities as well.
00:01:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I also have the privilege of being the co-director of the National Center on Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports, or PBIS, and get the chance to provide technical assistance to states and districts and do some research around the country in terms of just making schools a better place for students and families to be at.
00:02:17 Athena Cordero
I like the way you just tried to wrap that into one small, neat little package when actually I feel like you're all over the country all the time talking to everybody.
00:02:27 Athena Cordero
That's what it feels like.
00:02:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It might be, you know, you got to get the you got to get the chance in.
00:02:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
One of my colleagues, if you have ever heard the idea of the elevator pitch, which is, you know, you sit for if you got 30 seconds next to your superintendent, what do you do?
00:02:43 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I actually
00:02:46 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I am a bigger fan of what's called an alligator pitch, which is what can you share when you're about to get eaten by an alligator?
00:02:53 Athena Cordero
I like that.
00:02:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Sounds like elevator.
00:02:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So you gotta be even faster.
00:02:56 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You don't have 30 seconds.
00:02:58 Athena Cordero
I really, I'm gonna have to use that.
00:03:00 Athena Cordero
I can think of a couple of examples where I will use that actually.
00:03:03 Athena Cordero
So I'm stealing it.
00:03:04 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Steal it.
00:03:06 Athena Cordero
Okay, so we also have, and you've worked with Angie and I for, whew.
00:03:12 Athena Cordero
Man, how many, how many years have we known each other?
00:03:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh, it's probably close to a decade, I would say.
00:03:17 Athena Cordero
It has to be, right?
00:03:19 Athena Cordero
Yeah.
00:03:19 Athena Cordero
It is.
00:03:20 Athena Cordero
It is.
00:03:20 Athena Cordero
Okay.
00:03:20 Athena Cordero
So, uh, and Angela, Angie, in a decade?
00:03:24 Angie Mgbeke
Yeah, I have to be that formal.
00:03:25 Athena Cordero
I did for just a second.
00:03:27 Athena Cordero
Thank you.
00:03:28 Athena Cordero
Um, you and I have worked together for over 10 years in multiple, um, places.
00:03:33 Athena Cordero
And, um, we're more like, like work family, family work.
00:03:37 Athena Cordero
I don't know how, how I would describe it.
00:03:39 Athena Cordero
Definitely.
00:03:40 Athena Cordero
See, our, our kids grow up all that
00:03:41 Athena Cordero
kind of stuff.
00:03:42 Athena Cordero
Tell us about your role here at CAHELP.
00:03:46 Angie Mgbeke
Okay, well, I feel like I should have went first because Kent wears all that.
00:03:50 Angie Mgbeke
Okay.
00:03:53 Angie Mgbeke
I'm going to try to catch up with him.
00:03:56 Angie Mgbeke
However, as you say, I'm project manager for the prevention and intervention team here at Desert Mount Selpa slash CAHELP.
00:04:04 Angie Mgbeke
In my role, I provide coaching, training, technical assistance.
00:04:09 Angie Mgbeke
support to our surrounding LEAs.
00:04:12 Angie Mgbeke
I'm also a core member of California PBIS, where I provide support as well to all of Region 10 regarding PBIS implementation.
00:04:23 Angie Mgbeke
And I'm trying to think what else.
00:04:25 Angie Mgbeke
I feel like I need to give more because Kent has so much, but I think that sums it up.
00:04:29 Angie Mgbeke
That's my alligator.
00:04:30 Athena Cordero
That's your alligator pitch.
00:04:31 Angie Mgbeke
For what I do.
00:04:32 Athena Cordero
Okay.
00:04:32 Athena Cordero
I mean, we're gonna, we have more to talk about, so we're gonna get into all of that.
00:04:36 Athena Cordero
I will say just right out the gate that Kent has called Angie and I to just randomly at the drop of a dime come out to Chicago and present at a conference because he knew that we would do it just because he asked us to and it was a blast.
00:04:53 Athena Cordero
And that is kind of what I want to talk about today is all of that we get to share in those conferences, in the meetings that we've attended together, the state level, national level, all of that.
00:05:06 Athena Cordero
You guys both have your hands in student data all the time, but you also know how important it is to build relationships in the process and looking at that.
00:05:20 Athena Cordero
So just with that in mind, Kent, I mean,
00:05:23 Athena Cordero
If you can even tell us right now, how many state teams do you think you've met with, worked with in your years of doing this?
00:05:34 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Cool.
00:05:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Well, we at the center work with currently are working with 46 state or territory teams.
00:05:43 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I work really closely with just a few of them.
00:05:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
because I got I got all those hats.
00:05:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So there are a few that I work with and then I get a chance to go hang out with other people as well.
00:05:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But California is one of the places that I'm lucky to be with and around.
00:05:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so I get a chance to get a chance to sit in and watch Angie do her magic with the state team as well.
00:06:08 Athena Cordero
It is magic.
00:06:09 Athena Cordero
Shout out to the California PBIS and the Center on PBIS.
00:06:13 Athena Cordero
We have met many folks from both of those
00:06:17 Athena Cordero
groups and they're awesome, awesome minds, awesome researchers.
00:06:21 Athena Cordero
The presentation skills are off the charts.
00:06:23 Athena Cordero
They just, they're really talented folks.
00:06:26 Angie Mgbeke
Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:28 Angie Mgbeke
Really intentional on the work that's being brought out and looking at the data, but also working together and meeting together on a regular basis to ensure that schools are getting the supports that they need and the students.
00:06:43 Athena Cordero
So I'm going to ask you guys,
00:06:47 Athena Cordero
I haven't -- I switched roles a little bit.
00:06:49 Athena Cordero
And so I haven't -- I haven't had, you know, the opportunity to work as closely with school teams as I did before with you.
00:06:57 Athena Cordero
And we're living in a little bit of a different time with a few things.
00:07:01 Athena Cordero
So can you guys give me, you know, catch me up on...
00:07:06 Athena Cordero
what it's like right now currently, you know, looking at student data, education, life on campuses, maybe even some challenges that you guys have seen, you know, some trends just nationally and locally, what does that look like now?
00:07:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, you know, a lot of it, what I think of is we're still kind of coming back from the COVID-19 pandemic and kind of recovering that way, and then all of a sudden to get
00:07:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
all of this noise outside of the classroom just kind of bearing in has not been super duper helpful.
00:07:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
A lot of turnover of people saying, you know, I'm sick of this, I'm done, I put in my few years and I'm out of here, or I put in my one year and I'm out of here.
00:07:52 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Wow.
00:07:53 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so, you know, we really try to encourage people to just go back to what are the basics, what are the things that are most
00:08:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
impactful in terms of the work we do with our students and the work we do with our families, try to cut out some of that noise and find like, what are the things that we agree on?
00:08:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And like we all want our kids to go to schools where when they walk in the door, they know that the adults are on their side looking out for them, that there are people there who are really paying attention.
00:08:29 Dr. Kent McIntosh
to how it feels to be there and want some student and family voice in what that looks like.
00:08:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think that, for me anyways, I've found it much more useful to focus on what are the common goals that we've got as opposed to kind of jumping into arguments.
00:08:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, you usually hear that thing.
00:08:53 Dr. Kent McIntosh
that you hear in like basic classroom management training is like, if you get into a power struggle with your students, then you've already lost.
00:09:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think of the same thing with adults around too.
00:09:04 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If I feel like there's this friction and all of a sudden like we're coming at it against each other, like adversaries, then it's like, oh, hang on, take a step back.
00:09:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Where are areas of common ground?
00:09:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What are the spots that we can agree on and let's build from there as opposed to
00:09:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
going right at it because there's just so much going on in terms of, school boards and states and so much coming down from the federal government that when it comes down to it, the work of teaching is still pretty similar.
00:09:39 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We still, we get the students who come in the door and those are the students that come in the door regardless.
00:09:45 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we got to support them.
00:09:46 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We got to figure out what their needs are.
00:09:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And
00:09:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so it is kind of putting that focus right on what are the things that we can do, providing, you know, for us, a lot of it is providing teams.
00:10:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So that might be classroom teachers, that might be school teams, that might be district teams, that might be state teams, with really actionable steps that they can take that we know are the most likely to improve outcomes.
00:10:16 Athena Cordero
And I would imagine, because you've been doing this for so long, that all of that is just a piece of cake, right?
00:10:21 Athena Cordero
Like going in?
00:10:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Absolutely.
00:10:26 Athena Cordero
Piece of cake, no problems, right?
00:10:30 Athena Cordero
I mean, like I said, you explain it so well.
00:10:35 Athena Cordero
It sounds very doable, but you and I, Angie, I mean, we know we can say that, but living it, doing it,
00:10:44 Athena Cordero
seeing it in action is quite, you know, another story, right?
00:10:48 Athena Cordero
So in this time then, and thinking about it that way, what do you guys think are leaders, you know, on school campuses, how has the shift kind of affected them?
00:11:01 Athena Cordero
And what approach have you seen work, you know, coming from them as a leader, you know, on a campus to move people, to motivate people, inspire people to keep that focus?
00:11:11 Athena Cordero
Because
00:11:13 Athena Cordero
I mean, I'm being facetious, right?
00:11:14 Athena Cordero
It's not a piece of cake.
00:11:14 Athena Cordero
That's difficult.
00:11:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Right.
00:11:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, you know, I think one of the biggest things that I have learned, and this is, you know, where a lot of what we try to do is make sure that learning spaces are fair for everybody.
00:11:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And when people come into that,
00:11:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Each one of us is bringing our own perspective, our own lens into that.
00:11:40 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Well, what is fair?
00:11:40 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What am I going to be looking out for?
00:11:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And what are my preconceived notions coming right into the situation before I even step foot in the school door, before I even talking with a student, before I'm even talking with an administrator?
00:11:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And one of the things that I really encourage people to do is there's so much
00:12:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
data that are collected in schools or so many reporting requirements that just starting with that, like not making assumptions and just following the data.
00:12:11 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So, you know, we've got a lot of conversations out there about are our schools fair based on the color of your skin?
00:12:19 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Are students being treated differently?
00:12:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Do we see disparities or do we not?
00:12:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Are our schools agents
00:12:30 Dr. Kent McIntosh
of some giant culture war.
00:12:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And for me, I say like, I just want to see what those data tell us before going in and making an assumption.
00:12:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so some of the work that we do is specifically looking at racial disproportionality and school discipline.
00:12:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
One of the things that has been a good game changer for us
00:12:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
is we used to sort of go in and say, Well, let's look at your racial disparities 'cause you clearly have them and I'm pretty sure what student group that is.
00:13:04 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's really changed for us to say, Actually, let's like take one step back from that assumption and let's just look and see if there are any disparities.
00:13:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then if they are, what groups are there?
00:13:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think California is actually a pretty good place to do that because the patterns
00:13:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
might really, really vary.
00:13:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I might go in and I might be thinking, oh, I think that because of what I've seen in the world, my lived experience and the national data, that the data are going to look like this.
00:13:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's going to be, if you are just any school, odds are it's going to be black or African-American students who are going to be disproportionately disciplined.
00:13:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But then you can take a look
00:13:53 Dr. Kent McIntosh
you know, at those regional variations and see.
00:13:56 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And even if that's our assumption going in, which is not a bad assumption, right?
00:14:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like, you know, if I've got Vegas money on it, that's probably going to be pointing in that direction.
00:14:07 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But that's not always the case.
00:14:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we see schools where we don't see that.
00:14:11 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's a great thing to be able to highlight and celebrate.
00:14:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But we found it so much better to just say, like, let's give people the tools, let's look at their data together and just see what's going on.
00:14:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If we're being fair, that's great.
00:14:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If if we look at it and the numbers don't really line up with our values as educators, right?
00:14:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we we say like, huh, are we being fair with everybody?
00:14:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of talk about
00:14:46 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, are we treating people differently based on violations of civil rights?
00:14:52 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And you hear a few different groups talking about, you know, are we treating kids differently based on race?
00:14:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we don't want to be treating kids differently based on race.
00:15:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We want race not to be a factor in our discipline decisions that we make.
00:15:09 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And unfortunately, the patterns that we see is if you're not paying attention to it, then race,
00:15:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
is probably going to be a factor in the decisions.
00:15:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But once you become aware of that, once you look at your data, then we just say, okay, we now get to put on our teacher hats and solve this problem because we see it right in front of us.
00:15:32 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's been huge for us.
00:15:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So you don't, you don't come in and say, I, you know, I don't walk into professional learning and say, I think every teacher in here is racist.
00:15:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like that's not, that, A, that's not really true.
00:15:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's not actually helpful for us to have that conversation.
00:15:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Instead, it's just like, all right, let's just see like what the, what the cold hard numbers are.
00:15:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then let's just recognize that maybe they're going to line up with how we feel like we treat kids and we
00:16:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
they're not.
00:16:03 Athena Cordero
Right.
00:16:04 Athena Cordero
I appreciate the reframe, Kent, because, I mean, you know, Angie and I have trained cultural responsiveness, student discipline, equity, all the tools that we got from a really great researcher that had helped us understand these things as we're coming into, you know, our own positions here.
00:16:25 Athena Cordero
And you're right, if you walk into
00:16:29 Athena Cordero
man, a staff room, staff lounge, folks knowing what you're coming to train on and knowing you're going to start looking at, you know, student data, student discipline data, they're looking at you almost, you know, wondering if you're looking at them thinking they're racist or there's racist practices, you know, going on on their campuses, when really as the trainer, you're just trying to come in and help them look at data, period, you know, like, what is it that we can find out?
00:16:57 Athena Cordero
But one thing that comes to my mind, I know coming into rooms like that is, you know, if you go in looking for something specific, you will absolutely find it.
00:17:06 Athena Cordero
So if you come into the room looking for disproportionate data, and that's really all you're looking for, that's what you're going to walk away with.
00:17:15 Athena Cordero
But if you go in, like you said, looking at the data as a whole, what you do well,
00:17:20 Athena Cordero
what kids respond to, and where some things don't match up, you walk away feeling like you can do some things about it and not like you're being accused of something.
00:17:32 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, I used to, and I still come to this, if I walk into a room, I use this own data that I collect called the arms crossed data.
00:17:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I walk in the room and like, who is already leaning back in their chair with their arms crossed.
00:17:47 Athena Cordero
Yeah.
00:17:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And who isn't?
00:17:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Who's like up, presence, looking forward?
00:17:53 Athena Cordero
Right.
00:17:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And my goal is not to convert every single arm crossed into an open arms, but rather just to have fewer crossed arms and more leaning into the work by the end.
00:18:05 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Because you're absolutely right, somebody's going to come in, they're going to see the content.
00:18:10 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, they're going to see the presenter and what the presenter looks like, and that's going to be a big thing for some folks.
00:18:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
They're going to say, Oh, here's this person who's coming in with an agenda.
00:18:21 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And, you know, I think I benefit from people not necessarily thinking that I come in with an agenda just based on the way I look and so on.
00:18:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But,
00:18:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, it is, I think that it's useful to just take that step back and say, let's really think about what that looks like.
00:18:43 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And in this school, in this context, and we don't need to make assumptions about each other.
00:18:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Instead, let's just realize we're all in the room.
00:18:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like, nobody went into education to kick all their kids out of their classroom, right?
00:19:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Right.
00:19:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That's not a thing.
00:19:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I don't want to be like,
00:19:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, I want to suspend some kids today.
00:19:04 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Right.
00:19:06 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But, you know, that's what, that is what happens, right?
00:19:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I, you know, when I was teaching, went through the same thing and it's like, oh my gosh, how, what, this is not what I want, but somehow this is what's happening or what.
00:19:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so I think being able to say, I have never met an educator who doesn't actually want to do right by kids.
00:19:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I'd met a bunch who were saying like, oh my gosh, how do I deal with this societal problem?
00:19:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Or I've tried some things and I'm not sure if they work.
00:19:39 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Or wow, I do see that our data are showing that we're not being fair to students.
00:19:47 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then I think one of the things that is important is a lot of times that's like when that professional learning day ends.
00:19:56 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We don't want that to be the time because then people basically say like, oh, so these data are basically saying like, I'm a bad person.
00:20:05 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so then I can just reject those data.
00:20:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But instead saying, okay, well, this doesn't line up with what I wanted.
00:20:12 Dr. Kent McIntosh
This doesn't line up with what I want to see.
00:20:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Well, let's talk about some tools that we can use, some things that are legitimate, like let's not wait for like broader societal change, or let's not wait for the city to put in some kind of different mandate, a different funding formula, something like that.
00:20:32 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Let's actually say like, what can I do tomorrow in my classroom?
00:20:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I have always appreciated that when I've gotten professional learning and
00:20:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's also something that the two of you have done so well over the years.
00:20:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
There's always something you can grab and take from it.
00:20:52 Athena Cordero
Thank you.
00:20:54 Athena Cordero
So I'm going to tag Angie in on that because I've watched her do it, just co-training, co-facilitating, and where you're trying to get...
00:21:04 Athena Cordero
you know, a room full of teachers who half maybe really want to hear what you have to say, and the other half, you know, are very apprehensive about what comes next.
00:21:15 Athena Cordero
And it's hard sometimes to focus on what you can do rather than all of the things coming against you, right?
00:21:23 Athena Cordero
Or, you know, all of the, the noise, like you said, just kind of the outside noise.
00:21:29 Athena Cordero
And I have watched her look at folks, start off and say,
00:21:34 Athena Cordero
But we can't, and her literally in a very tactful way, transitioned into, but what can you do?
00:21:42 Athena Cordero
let's just talk about what can you do.
00:21:44 Athena Cordero
And Angie, I know, I mean, you've been doing this now, what, seven years?
00:21:51 Athena Cordero
Can you...
00:21:53 Athena Cordero
What is it still?
00:21:54 Athena Cordero
Is it easier to still walk into the classroom when you're having to talk about student data, discipline, all of that, with the room full of people you've probably never met before?
00:22:03 Athena Cordero
Or is it still just as, is it still a challenge?
00:22:06 Angie Mgbeke
Well, I would like to say it's easier, but it is not.
00:22:09 Athena Cordero
Okay.
00:22:11 Angie Mgbeke
True.
00:22:12 Angie Mgbeke
But one thing that I've learned and then just seeing.
00:22:17 Angie Mgbeke
the last couple years, we have a grant here that we've been implementing called California Integrated Supports Project, California ISP.
00:22:25 Angie Mgbeke
And so with that, having the collaboration and the partnership with the schools have made it easier.
00:22:31 Angie Mgbeke
So prior to, we would do these trainings and then wonder if they're actually going to take the concepts that we provided, the strategies that provided, and went and put it in action.
00:22:42 Angie Mgbeke
Now having that partnership and
00:22:45 Angie Mgbeke
creating an action plan at the end and then actually doing either observations or walkthroughs and seeing it in action has helped.
00:22:54 Angie Mgbeke
And then also coming back, so not just doing a one and done, but multiple training, so that's helped.
00:22:59 Angie Mgbeke
So having modules, because initially,
00:23:02 Angie Mgbeke
going into some of these schools and looking at me and saying, I don't want to talk about none of this or this data, even though it's their school data, is fake.
00:23:10 Angie Mgbeke
That's me.
00:23:10 Angie Mgbeke
So they're like, this is not our data.
00:23:13 Angie Mgbeke
Okay, well, we pulled it from your, you know, SIS system.
00:23:17 Angie Mgbeke
Yeah.
00:23:18 Angie Mgbeke
So I think it's really just them.
00:23:20 Angie Mgbeke
one getting used to me coming in, used to our specialist coming in and providing the training, coaching, and technical assistance for support, that's helped then versus just the training.
00:23:34 Angie Mgbeke
And also frontlining that.
00:23:39 Angie Mgbeke
prior to really providing data ahead of time prior to has helped.
00:23:44 Angie Mgbeke
So they're able to process it before you have to speak to it has helped.
00:23:49 Angie Mgbeke
Because if you just kind of, a lot of them are taken by surprise and you'll get exactly that, what you're not wanting.
00:23:54 Angie Mgbeke
So.
00:23:55 Angie Mgbeke
really come in and saying, Oh, let's talk about this first, or share it ahead of time, have the admin share it ahead of time before we have to come in and provide support, that's been helpful.
00:24:05 Athena Cordero
I do remember that.
00:24:06 Athena Cordero
I remember how important it is, how vital it is to have the administrator participate and be part of the action plan to be present during those meetings and those trainings, and to
00:24:22 Athena Cordero
kind of go first, you know, in sharing and engaging, that made a huge difference from the beginning.
00:24:29 Athena Cordero
And for whatever reason, if the administrator was not able to, because of course, I mean, they're still leading a school, things happen.
00:24:39 Athena Cordero
But when there is an absence of an administrator, you could tell immediately what the rest of that time's gonna be like.
00:24:47 Athena Cordero
And I mean, I'm sure you guys can agree that you've seen the same thing.
00:24:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh yeah.
00:24:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, we actually prep that with our administrators when we come in, because there's sort of two ways that it can go.
00:24:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And one way that you're describing is that somebody says like, We want to own this, like we want to do better.
00:25:06 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that is why, right, we brought Angie in, we brought Athena in.
00:25:11 Dr. Kent McIntosh
This is a big thing that's very different from...
00:25:15 Dr. Kent McIntosh
As you have seen on the news, we've entered into a consent decree with the Office of Civil Rights, and so therefore, this is our mandated training.
00:25:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Have at it.
00:25:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Right.
00:25:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so any time that a leader can show visible leadership, standing and saying, This is important to us, not because we got dinged, right?
00:25:40 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Not because we're on a bad list,
00:25:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
but because being on that list means we can do better to serve our students and their families.
00:25:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's the part that's important.
00:25:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like, do you get embarrassed that you're on a list or do you feel bad because there's some missed opportunities there?
00:26:00 Athena Cordero
Yeah, it's interesting because
00:26:04 Athena Cordero
I guess what used to throw me off is that as the adults, we're really good at reminding kids when they make a mistake, you know, this doesn't have to be who you are.
00:26:13 Athena Cordero
This is just something that happened.
00:26:15 Athena Cordero
You know, what do we do now?
00:26:17 Athena Cordero
But then as adults, if we find ourselves in a situation where something didn't go the way we intended, or we didn't realize, you know, unintentionally caused something in the data, you know, trying to get
00:26:30 Athena Cordero
adult brains, you know, to say, okay, this doesn't have to define the whole rest of the year or next year or the year after that.
00:26:38 Athena Cordero
Let's see what we can do.
00:26:40 Athena Cordero
It's a little different.
00:26:41 Athena Cordero
It's like our, the older we get, you know, less, less likely we are to have an open mind about that kind of thing, you know, directing those things.
00:26:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We are biologically programmed for that same thing.
00:26:53 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So I'll give an example.
00:26:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So Angie and I are going to do a workshop at the California PBIS conference next month, and we're going to do a full day on equity.
00:27:03 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I'm going to do the morning and Angie's going to do the afternoon.
00:27:06 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It's going to be fantastic.
00:27:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I will guarantee that we're going to get participant feedback and
00:27:15 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Nine out of 10 comments are going to be like, this was great.
00:27:19 Dr. Kent McIntosh
This is super actionable.
00:27:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We're going to do this.
00:27:21 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then one out of 10 is going to be like, oh, this is sort of a waste of time.
00:27:27 Angie Mgbeke
Yeah.
00:27:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Our adult brains are going to jump right in on that one waste of time and not the nine, this was helpful.
00:27:38 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's been shown in plenty of research that as we get older, we pay attention to the constructive feedback more than the positive feedback.
00:27:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it doesn't have to be that way.
00:27:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But you do got to catch yourself because it's that initial instinct of like, one person said something bad.
00:27:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that's going to derail everything.
00:28:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so we could say the same thing about presenters.
00:28:03 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We can say the same thing about families.
00:28:05 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I mean, how many times have like, you know, for me, I've definitely been shook when I had a bad family meeting before school or before a shift.
00:28:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then it's like, oh, I'm just like replaying that.
00:28:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like, I did not help serve the
00:28:21 Dr. Kent McIntosh
that family in a way.
00:28:23 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I'm going to be ruminating on that.
00:28:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then of course, now I'm in like the reactive mode and I'm not thinking about being proactive with my students or with my staff here.
00:28:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so it just gets, you know, you just get caught not in the driver's seat and just in the back trying to react.
00:28:44 Athena Cordero
Yeah.
00:28:44 Athena Cordero
I mean, and like you said, human nature, right?
00:28:48 Athena Cordero
Even in, and we're talking about, you know, our own mistakes as adults and you know how we teach kids, but that same example, I just shared it with another guest on the podcast.
00:29:00 Athena Cordero
Even when we're talking to kids, sometimes we don't always remember to remind them, you know, that this doesn't have to mean forever.
00:29:08 Athena Cordero
When kids come home with that report card with, you know, five A's and a C,
00:29:14 Athena Cordero
The first question, you know, is what happened?
00:29:17 Athena Cordero
You know, what happened right here?
00:29:19 Athena Cordero
Even though you've got this other beautiful display of academics, you know, going on on the report card, that's just what comes to mind.
00:29:28 Athena Cordero
And I think you're right.
00:29:30 Athena Cordero
In the work that we do on campuses, we still, because that's part of teaching and education is to correct things, to get it right.
00:29:38 Athena Cordero
So you're kind of training your teacher brain to look for the error and go from there.
00:29:44 Athena Cordero
And that's what we're used to.
00:29:45 Athena Cordero
But in a case like this, when it's so, it can be so emotional and folks can be so critical of themselves or pick up when someone else is being critical or when they feel they're being critical, we do kind of turn off, you know, like we shut down a little bit and it is hard to still take in anything, anything productive, you know, after that point.
00:30:08 Athena Cordero
And I mean, I'm speaking from experience and as a parent,
00:30:13 Athena Cordero
Um, parent teacher conference is, it can be one of two things.
00:30:17 Athena Cordero
Your kid's doing great.
00:30:18 Athena Cordero
I'm not worried.
00:30:19 Athena Cordero
Everything's fine.
00:30:20 Athena Cordero
Or it could be, we need to talk.
00:30:23 Athena Cordero
You know, there's some things where you can talk about and it doesn't always go well.
00:30:28 Athena Cordero
So from you, from you guys, and, and I think so many people can, I, you know, can really identify with this.
00:30:37 Athena Cordero
You want to go in, um,
00:30:40 Athena Cordero
positively, you want to go in, focus on the relationship, but you also know that if there's something wrong, you don't have time to beat around the bush, right?
00:30:49 Athena Cordero
Like you do kind of need to take care of business too.
00:30:53 Athena Cordero
What's that balance like right now?
00:30:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah.
00:30:56 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, that is a fantastic question.
00:30:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I don't know if I'm always quite good at it, but one of the things that I've been doing, like a lot of people think of that like,
00:31:07 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If you're giving feedback, a lot of us were trained like do the compliment sandwich, which is let's provide something really good, right?
00:31:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Provide some praise.
00:31:14 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then you lay in the constructive feedback, which is what we need to grow, right?
00:31:21 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That's helpful.
00:31:23 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then you finish with something positive.
00:31:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And that used to be like my total mantra.
00:31:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I don't do that as much anymore because people get lost.
00:31:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It becomes like the message gets blurry and sometimes people are forget, like they're remembering the praise around the middle of the sandwich.
00:31:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So.
00:31:45 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Instead, what I try to do is have lots of positive interactions throughout, pointing out what is it you did well?
00:31:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What are the things that are working?
00:31:56 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We have in our office, we've got a board where people can publicly
00:32:03 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So this is our research unit at the University of Oregon, where we have the Center on PBIS.
00:32:09 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we've got a staff compliment wall and you can put something up there and we have a digital one.
00:32:15 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So we've got, you know, both our remote employees and our hybrid folks.
00:32:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I try to use that a lot.
00:32:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I try to catch, you know, when something's good and sometimes I got to remember because it's the right, the negative stuff is the thing that pops out.
00:32:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But the beauty is if I've had a lot of good positive interactions with folks, then when I need to deliver that corrective feedback, I can just go in with that and I've already built up that relationship.
00:32:47 Dr. Kent McIntosh
People know that I care, people know that I'm paying attention to it, and it can be really, really quick.
00:32:53 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I will still, you know, often end with something positive, but a lot of it is like, we're going to work on this together, here's how I can help, as opposed to
00:33:03 Dr. Kent McIntosh
like, you know, having tough feedback to deliver and then kind of shying away from it, you know, be like, oh, but, but, but, but, but, but, you know, you're really cool, which is great, you know, and have it nicely, but I, you know, if it's an, unfortunately, you know, if it's an accountability conversation, you know, I want it to be constructive, but it needs to be specific.
00:33:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It needs to be to the point.
00:33:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then we need to know that there's going to be some follow up and some help.
00:33:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's not like, you know, this is your last warning right before you're out of here.
00:33:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It's much more of a like, oh, yeah, you know, hey, I noticed this thing and let's chat about that.
00:33:49 Athena Cordero
Yeah.
00:33:50 Athena Cordero
And we have some work to do, right?
00:33:53 Athena Cordero
I love the way you explain that.
00:33:55 Athena Cordero
It I know I don't know if you were thinking about it, Angie, but Angie and I have both been supervisors.
00:34:01 Athena Cordero
before.
00:34:02 Athena Cordero
And it is, it's not easy.
00:34:04 Athena Cordero
It never gets easier to have to sit down and have a difficult conversation with anyone, right?
00:34:10 Athena Cordero
But you're absolutely right.
00:34:11 Athena Cordero
The more that you build a relationship, you don't have to be best friends, but at least where you can trust each other, be straight with each other, then the times when you do have to come in with something a little more serious, they know you're not coming from a place of, I gotcha, or, you know, I'm trying to get rid of you.
00:34:30 Athena Cordero
It's we have to take care of something, like there's something we have to take care of.
00:34:34 Athena Cordero
That does make it so much, so much easier.
00:34:37 Athena Cordero
Not easy, but easier.
00:34:39 Angie Mgbeke
Oh yeah.
00:34:40 Angie Mgbeke
That reminds me of like restorative practices.
00:34:42 Angie Mgbeke
So if you're having, you know, those conversations, it's not like a dacha, they're used to it.
00:34:48 Angie Mgbeke
They're used to having those conversations where you have to do that follow up.
00:34:52 Angie Mgbeke
Yeah.
00:34:53 Angie Mgbeke
Also, it reminds me of the after action reviews that we did, right?
00:34:57 Angie Mgbeke
So after any event or something's happening, we have an after action review and we ask what worked, what didn't work, you know what I mean?
00:35:04 Angie Mgbeke
And so having them speak to that helps as well, having them think process, did it all work out as planned or not helps without us just having to say, this did not work, this happening, it probably could have looked like this,
00:35:19 Angie Mgbeke
trying to do that sandwich analogy that you just spoke of, Kent, you know, but it really helps them speak into it first prior to us even have to say anything because sometimes they'll pull it out on their own.
00:35:29 Athena Cordero
Yeah, and yeah.
00:35:31 Athena Cordero
Usually when you're asking questions and you're using a third point or some other type of template structure, it belongs to whatever process you're using, right?
00:35:41 Athena Cordero
It's not just my opinion or what you think or feel.
00:35:44 Athena Cordero
It's this process that we know we're going to do every single time.
00:35:47 Athena Cordero
And this is how we roll when we walk through this.
00:35:51 Athena Cordero
It does make it much, much easier.
00:35:53 Athena Cordero
I can't think of a situation that I've been in since I've been working
00:35:59 Athena Cordero
where that hasn't helped, where we can have an ongoing relationship.
00:36:03 Athena Cordero
So when things get kind of thick, you know, we can go there, but recover from it much more easily than if the only time I talk to you is when there's something yucky, you know, going on.
00:36:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh, 100%.
00:36:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
The two things that I think about with that is one is, I stress all the time, we are a learning organization.
00:36:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
whatever organization, I'm a part of a few organizations, but as our group here, we are going to figure out what went right.
00:36:34 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We're going to figure out what went wrong.
00:36:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What are the things that we can do to make a change?
00:36:39 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What are the things that we can go, oh, that didn't go well, but I can let go of it because it doesn't, it's not serving us right now.
00:36:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That part to be able to say like, yeah, we're going to make mistakes, we're going to model that, and then we're going to try new stuff and we're going to be okay if that new stuff doesn't work out really well.
00:37:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then the connection with that too, and I talk about this analogy a lot with students, but it is with my folks too.
00:37:08 Dr. Kent McIntosh
the relationship bank account.
00:37:10 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we've been kind of talking about that a little bit, right?
00:37:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So you wanna like, you wanna be putting money into that bank account and sometimes you gotta make a withdrawal.
00:37:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And one of the things that you really gotta watch out for is you don't wanna make a withdrawal and then see that insufficient funds receipt come out instead of actual cash, right?
00:37:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Which is what's gonna happen
00:37:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
if we haven't already built that relationship, and that relationship can come from that positives, it can come from that just unconditional regard that we have, and with trust in the process, like you were describing, Angie, with understanding about how to repair relationships, how to repair harm, and how to be our better selves.
00:38:01 Athena Cordero
I can't, I think, I agree with you, Kent, and I try to keep in mind too how important it is to be tactful and, you know, like those conversations and there's, I, someone explained it to me that the tact is, I want to make sure I say this right, the art of making a point without making an enemy, right?
00:38:22 Athena Cordero
Like you can deliver, deliver something without just severing a relationship.
00:38:29 Athena Cordero
at the end of it.
00:38:30 Athena Cordero
And it is an art, it is, because emotions can be high on both sides, right?
00:38:36 Athena Cordero
So with that, with that in mind, and again, I'm coming to you guys because you're still in there with the schools, you're on campuses, you're talking to folks.
00:38:43 Athena Cordero
What if we have an administrator right now who maybe just feels stuck, right?
00:38:48 Athena Cordero
Like the data's not lining up.
00:38:50 Athena Cordero
People are not getting what they want or seeing what they want fast enough, which we know folks feel like when they implement something, they wanna see results next week sometimes.
00:38:59 Athena Cordero
Tensions are high.
00:39:01 Athena Cordero
What's one small step maybe they can take to just try to help themselves get, you know, come from that feeling of what do I do?
00:39:11 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I'm going to get, I'm going to give the long version and, and then a short version.
00:39:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But one of the things that I think is really, really critical is everything that we do in schools is better when it's part of a team.
00:39:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so,
00:39:27 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Um, if you feel as administrator, I'm talking to the administrators out there.
00:39:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If you feel like you're out there on an island and it is lonely at the top, right?
00:39:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But if you feel like everybody is against you, that's when it's time to go.
00:39:40 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like, who, who else, who else can I pull into this team?
00:39:45 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I have found incredible positives and it sounds sort of silly, but to find folks who might be naysayers, but are
00:39:57 Dr. Kent McIntosh
are actually like providing like really good insights.
00:40:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think it's not uncommon, I think, for admins to be like, oh my God, here's this person who is always going to stand up in a thing and they're going to, you know, they're going to poo poo the things that I'm going to say, or they're going to be that it's not going to work or, you know, this is this is just more bandaids from the district instead of just kicking kids out, which is what I want to do or something like that.
00:40:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
to pull those folks in and have some one-on-ones with them and say like, I need to learn from you.
00:40:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You have the voice of the staff.
00:40:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Can I run a couple ideas past you before our staff meeting next week and hear like, what do you think?
00:40:43 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Are people going to like it?
00:40:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Are people not going to like it?
00:40:47 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And one of the things that I have found is that some of those people who are really like
00:40:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Often a loud naysayer voice are often like really good critical thinkers and can think through, right, all the ways that something could go wrong.
00:41:06 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I could view that as like, oh my God, they're just negative and they're not going to ever be, you know, they're not going to like anything.
00:41:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Or I could say, they're really insightful.
00:41:15 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Like they're actually predicting the future.
00:41:19 Dr. Kent McIntosh
figure out ways to predict a better future based on that.
00:41:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So who do I need to win over?
00:41:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What do I need to do?
00:41:29 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What is going to be the big draw, like complaint that people are going to have, and then how can I do it?
00:41:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But, you know, providing collaboration time,
00:41:38 Dr. Kent McIntosh
collaboration time that's focused as well, instead of just like, you all do whatever you want to do so that we come back at the end and have great little teams sharing out, like, what are their plans?
00:41:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Angie, you were talking about that sustained follow-up that's in there.
00:41:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Those are some of the things that I think about, but it can be tough.
00:42:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I will say there are certainly some times when it's like, oof.
00:42:05 Dr. Kent McIntosh
This administrator does not have the support of their faculty, and it just feels really awful.
00:42:12 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And you get into this mode of like, wow, like, you know, they could throw an ice cream party and people are like, I didn't want ice cream.
00:42:22 Athena Cordero
We don't eat ice cream around here.
00:42:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah.
00:42:26 Athena Cordero
Right.
00:42:27 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so trying to break through that I think is really helpful, but sometimes it's just being able to kind of name it, right?
00:42:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And being able to be vulnerable and say, Hey, you know, I did this thing and I don't know if it worked and I want to let you know I saw what happened and I'm going to do it differently in the future.
00:42:52 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's not a, you know, I so right.
00:42:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So I'm American and Canadian.
00:43:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so we are big on apologizing or half of me is big on apologizing and half of me big on like middle finger.
00:43:09 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But you figure out what this *****.
00:43:12 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But it's less apologizing for it and it's more like owning it and then talking about a plan to make things different down the road.
00:43:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think an admin who can say, hey, look, you know, I slipped up here and let me tell you what I think happened.
00:43:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then let me tell you how we're going to do that differently.
00:43:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And Dr.
00:43:37 Dr. Kent McIntosh
David Campt calls that the, it is called the apologetic non-apology.
00:43:43 Athena Cordero
Okay.
00:43:43 Athena Cordero
So someone looks like sorry, not sorry type of...
00:43:47 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, it's sort of the opposite of that.
00:43:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I usually like, you know, that's fine.
00:43:51 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I thought of it as like, oh, is this administrators who never want to admit that they were wrong?
00:43:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But it's actually the other way around.
00:43:57 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And when you...
00:43:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
This is kind of one of those restorative practices principles.
00:44:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If you apologize to somebody, like if I apologize to you for like speaking over you or something like that, that apology might really be about me.
00:44:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It might not be about fixing things.
00:44:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And when I apologize to you, it sort of like puts you in an awkward spot where you have to be like, oh, that's okay.
00:44:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That's, that's all right that you did that.
00:44:29 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I forgive you.
00:44:30 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Right.
00:44:31 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Uh, when really like, maybe you don't want to forgive because I did something big, right?
00:44:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And, and something not cool.
00:44:37 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Um, and so to be able to say, can I, can I talk about what I'm going, can I talk about recognizing it?
00:44:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Can I talk about owning it?
00:44:46 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And can I do that without saying I'm sorry?
00:44:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Not because I'm like afraid to say that, but more because I don't want to burden that
00:44:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
that person who I've harmed by like making them, um, you know, do that.
00:45:02 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I, I think about that.
00:45:03 Athena Cordero
Making them responsible almost like, yeah.
00:45:07 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah.
00:45:07 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then it, then it's sort of like, well, I'm not quite ready to forgive you.
00:45:12 Athena Cordero
Right.
00:45:13 Dr. Kent McIntosh
But I want to be a good person.
00:45:16 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And now I'm on the spot.
00:45:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Maybe it's in front of a lot of people.
00:45:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah.
00:45:21 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That's kind of tough.
00:45:22 Athena Cordero
You know, I
00:45:24 Athena Cordero
I appreciate that for so many reasons.
00:45:26 Athena Cordero
One, because just saying I didn't get it right, or I could have done it differently, or I thought it was amazing, but nobody else, you know, nobody else.
00:45:37 Athena Cordero
It's a really good way, I think, to build trust in the group that you're leading, or, you know, you have a lead role in, because they just see you owning that you're human.
00:45:50 Athena Cordero
and you're willing to look at it differently or hear what they have to say to move in a different direction.
00:45:56 Athena Cordero
And trust does, I mean, so much for a team and for a group that's in a challenging situation, because now I don't have to guess whether you're being sincere.
00:46:08 Athena Cordero
I don't have to guess whether, you know, you're looking out for yourself.
00:46:12 Athena Cordero
I don't know if you know everything about this.
00:46:14 Athena Cordero
I don't know if you're going to have the best ideas, but I trust you because I know that you're in it for the kids or I know where your heart is.
00:46:21 Athena Cordero
That takes a lot of tension and a lot of stress out of any work, I think, immediately when you could come at it from that lens, or at least that's what I feel as someone who's been on the receiving end and someone who's had to lead in a situation like that.
00:46:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh, absolutely.
00:46:39 Athena Cordero
So I
00:46:40 Athena Cordero
I have to ask you guys, I mean, we've talked about some of the challenges, some things that we've been through, I mean, in just reality, right?
00:46:47 Athena Cordero
In the work that we get to do, what are you guys excited about?
00:46:52 Athena Cordero
I mean, what are some positive things on the horizon or that you're looking forward to that you're just, I mean, like bubbling up and inside over?
00:47:02 Angie Mgbeke
I'll go.
00:47:04 Angie Mgbeke
So I want to hear it.
00:47:06 Angie Mgbeke
I think with COVID,
00:47:09 Angie Mgbeke
When COVID happened, there were a lot of schools that unfortunately said PBIS or MTSS was not a priority, not realizing that it was everything that they were already doing.
00:47:20 Angie Mgbeke
Yes.
00:47:22 Angie Mgbeke
So we recently within our team have seen a lot of people come back to it and asking for more support and realizing it in fact is everything that they have been already doing.
00:47:39 Angie Mgbeke
and just seeing that it's still a need out there.
00:47:41 Angie Mgbeke
So like our model was to basically work ourselves out of a job to help them build capacity, sustainability, but we're still needed.
00:47:52 Angie Mgbeke
Like we're being called and being asked, especially with the needs of students individually.
00:48:02 Angie Mgbeke
And so when we're looking at that tier three aspect,
00:48:05 Angie Mgbeke
We are getting, can you come observe?
00:48:07 Angie Mgbeke
Can you come do this?
00:48:08 Angie Mgbeke
When essentially it's, can we help you build your system, not just necessarily observe one student, right?
00:48:15 Angie Mgbeke
If there was a system in place to support any student who needed whatever set support, then they would be able to function better.
00:48:25 Angie Mgbeke
And so with that need, I think,
00:48:29 Angie Mgbeke
we're excited because we're doing more work than we ever have before.
00:48:33 Angie Mgbeke
I actually did a training yesterday at a school district and they're one that has come back to PBIS and MTSS, which we're excited about because we haven't worked with them for like 7 years, 7 years since I've been at SOPA.
00:48:49 Angie Mgbeke
And so just seeing that and them being open and the feedback that I even got from the training of
00:48:58 Angie Mgbeke
This is something we need.
00:49:00 Angie Mgbeke
It's a better explanation of the tears.
00:49:02 Angie Mgbeke
So just us being able to really speak to what's needed at the tears, what systems look like, and the need for our students and our families in this day and age with social media happening with
00:49:20 Angie Mgbeke
the influx of the need to partner with our parents, because the family dynamic has changed for a lot of our families.
00:49:29 Angie Mgbeke
And I use like in my training, I use my life as an example, that even though I'm here at SELPA, I'm here at CA Hope, I work 8 to 4:30, right?
00:49:38 Angie Mgbeke
And so my daughter gets out of school at 1:47.
00:49:42 Angie Mgbeke
I'm not with her, so she's out of school, you know, and so she goes to afterschool program until 5:30.
00:49:49 Angie Mgbeke
And am I, even though being education for some time now, and I value education, I have to rely on the school system to provide so many supports because I'm not there with her.
00:50:03 Angie Mgbeke
And same for my husband.
00:50:04 Angie Mgbeke
He's working the same schedule.
00:50:06 Angie Mgbeke
And so the need is there for us to not just look at our schools for academic support, but social emotional support as well.
00:50:17 Angie Mgbeke
And so really
00:50:19 Angie Mgbeke
capturing the whole child.
00:50:20 Angie Mgbeke
And so I'm excited that schools and our LEAs are starting to understand that and see that and reaching out for support.
00:50:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh, yeah.
00:50:29 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That was actually going to be my same one.
00:50:32 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it's just people seeing
00:50:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Instead of the work that they do is all these separate initiatives and everything is different and we got to stop doing this to start doing that.
00:50:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
If you've got a good framework in place like MTSS, EIS, then all of a sudden it just, all of the things that you've got to do can fit in there.
00:50:52 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we see a lot of schools and districts that are saying, okay, well, we want to,
00:50:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We want to have an attendance initiative.
00:51:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We want to focus on substance misuse prevention.
00:51:06 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We want to focus on suicide prevention and mental health supports.
00:51:11 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And for people to say, Yeah, actually, we can do all of that within this tiered model.
00:51:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What does everybody need?
00:51:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What do a few students need?
00:51:22 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And what does a really small number of students who really need our help need?
00:51:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
has been really, really valuable because I think our gut instinct is, it's a new thing.
00:51:35 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Get rid of the old stuff.
00:51:37 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What are we supposed to do that's new and exciting this year?
00:51:40 Dr. Kent McIntosh
What have the program developers and curriculum developers promised is going to be the perfect next thing that's going to solve everything?
00:51:49 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And instead of saying like, what is it that we're doing right now that could address it?
00:51:54 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then,
00:51:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
what might be a small difference that would really help.
00:52:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And I think that's of huge value, especially when we're in a time of budget cuts and challenges to be able to say, we can actually address a lot of those things that are big state mandates
00:52:19 Dr. Kent McIntosh
or district mandates with the systems that we have in our schools, with the existing teams that we have.
00:52:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We can look at the data that we already have as opposed to saying, oh my God, this is one more thing and I'm done with this one more thing.
00:52:33 Athena Cordero
Yeah, absolutely.
00:52:34 Athena Cordero
I agree with you guys.
00:52:35 Athena Cordero
From the parent lens, I've seen a difference in the way schools are reaching out, the communication, what they communicate about, what you can go to them for.
00:52:46 Athena Cordero
It's kind of like a resource center and a school wrapped into one sometimes, it feels like.
00:52:51 Athena Cordero
And that does make you feel good as a parent.
00:52:54 Athena Cordero
And it helps with exactly what we were talking about earlier, which is now when I hear from the school, I'm not wondering what happened wrong.
00:53:02 Athena Cordero
You know, not necessarily.
00:53:03 Athena Cordero
I'm hearing more things that can be of help and of benefit to my family.
00:53:09 Athena Cordero
So I appreciate that, too.
00:53:10 Athena Cordero
I'm glad you guys brought that up.
00:53:13 Athena Cordero
Okay, so I can't let you guys go without pumping up the conferences that you guys have coming up in just a little bit.
00:53:20 Athena Cordero
So can you tell us what two conferences are coming up, the dates of them, kind of give us an idea of what they're about so folks know?
00:53:30 Angie Mgbeke
Okay, so I'll speak to California PBIS Conference.
00:53:33 Angie Mgbeke
That is October 8th through 10th in Sacramento.
00:53:36 Angie Mgbeke
And so that conference will have,
00:53:40 Angie Mgbeke
a variety of breakout sessions regarding PBIS and how you can incorporate different things into the framework.
00:53:47 Angie Mgbeke
So kind of like what Kent mentioned, like social emotional learning, cultural responsiveness, what does it look like in the different settings?
00:53:57 Angie Mgbeke
So alternative settings, high school settings.
00:54:02 Angie Mgbeke
And so we're really excited about it.
00:54:04 Angie Mgbeke
And Kent mentioned earlier, we are presenting at the pre-conference together and that's specific around disproportionality and racial inequities in our schools.
00:54:15 Angie Mgbeke
And so we're really excited.
00:54:16 Angie Mgbeke
It's a full day, our pre-conference, which is on October 8th.
00:54:20 Angie Mgbeke
So we're really excited about that.
00:54:21 Angie Mgbeke
It's coming up in a couple weeks.
00:54:23 Angie Mgbeke
And a lot of the districts and LEAs that we support in California attend.
00:54:28 Angie Mgbeke
And we get to highlight
00:54:30 Angie Mgbeke
the great things that our schools are doing.
00:54:32 Angie Mgbeke
So we'll be able to celebrate those schools that applied for California PBIS recognition at the different levels.
00:54:40 Angie Mgbeke
We're actually having a reception this year, which we.
00:54:42 Angie Mgbeke
Oh, that's nice.
00:54:43 Angie Mgbeke
Usually had, yeah.
00:54:44 Angie Mgbeke
And anybody who comes to the conference, they wouldn't be a part of that reception.
00:54:48 Angie Mgbeke
So that's exciting to be able to celebrate our schools a different way than we have before.
00:54:53 Angie Mgbeke
So.
00:54:53 Athena Cordero
Very cool.
00:54:54 Athena Cordero
I'm excited for you guys.
00:54:55 Athena Cordero
Whoever attends that session, I'm sure they're going to pull a lot from you both because
00:55:00 Athena Cordero
I've seen your work and I know that they're going to get a lot from you both.
00:55:03 Athena Cordero
I do want to just make sure that folks listening, if you're not sure what PBIS or MTSS stand for, PBIS is Positive Behavioral Interventions and Supports.
00:55:15 Athena Cordero
You can go to the Center on PBIS to find out more information about that.
00:55:19 Athena Cordero
MTSS is Multi-Tiered Systems of Supports, and that's basically taking, like Kent said, everything that you would like to do on your campus and putting it into a framework and
00:55:30 Athena Cordero
and looking at that according to tiers for what everybody needs, what some kids need, and what individual kids, you know, individual needs for certain kids.
00:55:39 Athena Cordero
And then we have the national conference also coming up.
00:55:42 Athena Cordero
Kent, you want to speak to that a little bit?
00:55:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, so that was October 21st to 23rd.
00:55:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It's in Chicago, Illinois.
00:55:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And one of the things that I really like about it is you do have
00:55:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
It's a little bit more curated in that it is invite only.
00:56:00 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And we try to focus a leader who knows the training, knows the research, knows the big principles, but we connect it with exemplar presenters who can talk about how they're actually doing the stuff.
00:56:17 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So it is different than
00:56:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
You know, just the folks who don't spend a lot of time in classrooms talking about what should happen.
00:56:26 Dr. Kent McIntosh
We like to have both of those.
00:56:28 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So you understand the theory, you understand the research behind it, but then you actually have some people who can share their lived experiences of implementing some of the barriers they've run into, how they've addressed those.
00:56:41 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And it is a great opportunity to learn and be in community together.
00:56:48 Athena Cordero
Awesome.
00:56:48 Athena Cordero
that reminds me when I first started here, one of my favorite questions I heard all the time was, but what does that look like?
00:56:57 Athena Cordero
what does that actually look like in the classroom on a campus?
00:57:00 Athena Cordero
And it sounds like that's what you guys are getting at is experience and application of those things.
00:57:05 Athena Cordero
which is invaluable for folks, for someone to hear what it was actually like.
00:57:10 Athena Cordero
So I'm sure that's going to be great.
00:57:12 Athena Cordero
I'm sure you guys are going to have a great time there.
00:57:15 Athena Cordero
Lots of stuff to look forward to.
00:57:16 Athena Cordero
Also, I'm not going to let you guys leave without giving some shout outs.
00:57:21 Athena Cordero
Anybody you guys just want to shout out from working with other sessions and, you know, in the conferences coming up, just here's your guys time to just really love on folks that you've worked with?
00:57:33 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I've got two, so one in each conference.
00:57:36 Dr. Kent McIntosh
So in California PBIS conference, one of the keynotes is gonna be Dr.
00:57:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Ruthie Paino-Simmons.
00:57:43 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah.
00:57:44 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Hi, I am proudly, I always get the chance to work side by side with her and learn something new every time.
00:57:55 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And then at the National Forum, Dr.
00:57:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Nicole Holland-Simms,
00:58:01 Dr. Kent McIntosh
is giving our day one keynote and just in terms of being able to build support together as opposed to, you know, being able to break through that kind of adversity feeling or adversarial feeling and really be able to find what we agree on and what we connect with.
00:58:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Those are my two who I'm going to shout out to.
00:58:29 Angie Mgbeke
Awesome, awesome, cool.
00:58:31 Angie Mgbeke
Angie, what about you?
00:58:33 Angie Mgbeke
Okay, so I'm gonna shout out the prevention and intervention team for CAHELP.
00:58:38 Angie Mgbeke
They do really great work and we have been collaborating much more often than in the past as far as with our LEAs of support and providing customized trainings, which has...
00:58:52 Angie Mgbeke
took more of our time, but in the end, it's worth it when we see change happen and we see implementation of fidelity.
00:59:00 Angie Mgbeke
So I'm going to shout them out.
00:59:01 Angie Mgbeke
I'm going to shout out California PBIS because just working with those group of people, they just make me smile.
00:59:08 Angie Mgbeke
Seriously, I work with them.
00:59:10 Angie Mgbeke
It's just something about them.
00:59:11 Angie Mgbeke
Every person on
00:59:13 Angie Mgbeke
on California PBIS, that's a core member.
00:59:16 Angie Mgbeke
Like I feel like they were just like hand selected to just help make my day a little bit better, which I know the purpose is way more than that.
00:59:24 Angie Mgbeke
However, I just have to shout them out.
00:59:27 Angie Mgbeke
And then Kent, of course, we have to shout him out.
00:59:31 Angie Mgbeke
He's been a great support for us at SELPA through California PBIS.
00:59:36 Angie Mgbeke
And you're connecting me with one of your shout outs, Nicole Hollins.
00:59:40 Angie Mgbeke
Sims, right?
00:59:40 Angie Mgbeke
Like me being able to present with her in Chicago, like I'm so excited to even be able to connect with her and get a different perspective that I haven't received before.
00:59:52 Angie Mgbeke
So shout out to Kent for sure and shout out to Peter.
00:59:57 Angie Mgbeke
Always.
00:59:59 Athena Cordero
And, you know, I'll say it again.
01:00:00 Athena Cordero
You guys are two of my favorite people, period.
01:00:03 Athena Cordero
Not just the work.
01:00:05 Athena Cordero
I've got a chance to hang out with you guys, you know, from conferences and things like that.
01:00:08 Athena Cordero
And your heart speaks so loud, you know, so loudly for what you're doing and how you try to go about it.
01:00:16 Athena Cordero
I couldn't ask for two better colleagues, you know, in training and then coming to CAHELP in SEPA.
01:00:23 Athena Cordero
I was very blessed with that.
01:00:25 Athena Cordero
Last thing, Kent,
01:00:27 Athena Cordero
For folks that don't work NCAHELP, with NCAHELP, I'd like to share that our mission statement is the relentless pursuit of whatever works in the life of a child.
01:00:38 Athena Cordero
And so I just leave you with one question.
01:00:40 Athena Cordero
If you can tell us what worked for you as a child, what worked for young Kent in school?
01:00:48 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Oh, you may or may not be surprised to hear that I got kicked out of class a lot.
01:00:57 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Yeah, could you believe it?
01:00:59 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Mostly talking too much, shouting out...
01:01:03 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I'm so shocked.
01:01:07 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And to have a couple of teachers who took an interest in me as a person and really connected in that way was...
01:01:18 Dr. Kent McIntosh
incredibly valuable.
01:01:20 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I definitely felt way, especially in high school, kind of in the outside, in the outs of, you know, my school community and being able to have some folks who, you know, really had my back and could also, you know, tell me like, hey, you're screwing this up right now.
01:01:39 Dr. Kent McIntosh
That I think was really, really valuable.
01:01:42 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And most of the time they were my,
01:01:47 Dr. Kent McIntosh
English language arts teachers.
01:01:50 Dr. Kent McIntosh
And so that's what I went to school to learn how to teach.
01:01:54 Athena Cordero
Awesome.
01:01:55 Athena Cordero
Okay, shout out those two, whoever they are.
01:01:57 Athena Cordero
Very cool.
01:01:58 Athena Cordero
Okay, so Dr.
01:01:59 Athena Cordero
Kent McIntosh, thank you for coming on today and talking with us.
01:02:04 Athena Cordero
Angie, thank you for coming.
01:02:06 Athena Cordero
This was nice for me today to have like a co-host of Source.
01:02:08 Athena Cordero
Yeah, that was very cool.
01:02:11 Athena Cordero
Very, very nice.
01:02:12 Athena Cordero
You guys enjoy the conference.
01:02:13 Athena Cordero
If I can make it, you know I'll be there asking some fun questions just to mess with you guys a little bit.
01:02:20 Athena Cordero
But please enjoy.
01:02:22 Athena Cordero
And again, thank you both for being on today.
01:02:24 Dr. Kent McIntosh
I loved it.
01:02:25 Dr. Kent McIntosh
Thank you so much for the opportunity.
01:02:28 Outro
Before we wrap up, we want to remind you that if you or someone you know is facing a crisis, help is available.
01:02:36 Outro
You are not alone.
01:02:38 Outro
If it's an emergency, please call 911.
01:02:42 Outro
For immediate support, you can reach out to the Crisis and Suicide Hotline by dialing 988.
01:02:49 Outro
Remember, taking the first step to ask for help is a sign of strength.
01:02:54 Outro
Stay safe, take care of yourself, and take care of each other.
01:02:59 Outro
Until next time, be well.
01:03:01 Ad Read
Join us as we talk to Dr.
01:03:03 Ad Read
Karina Quezada as she breaks down the myths and misconceptions about.
01:03:06 Ad Read
Dyslexia and shares practical ways that families and schools can partner together to support students' successes.
01:03:12 Ad Read
Whether you're an educator, parent, or just someone who wants to learn more, this episode will leave you with new insights, resources, and hope.
01:03:18 Ad Read
Tune in this October during Dyslexia Awareness Month to be part of the conversation.
01:03:22 Outro
See you next time.
